JR: I was just asking if he was shooting in focus. And it reminds me of the way they used to shoot Doris Day with multiple layers of gauze to soften the image. Remember that? [INT: Yeah.] It used to worry me before I was a filmmaker. I’d say, “Why is it--?” I never really did not understand why she looked different than the succeeding or preceding shots and she was always softer, and they were using--I don't know. Did they literally use Vaseline? [INT: They used Vaseline, they actually used the nets--] Nets. [INT --from some of these--you know?] The scrims. [INT: Well also, you know, they would take the--] Stockings. [INT: Stockings. Put a net stocking over here.] And so Lucille Ball, later in her life, did -- what was the film? [INT: Well she did AUNTIE MAME.] AUNTIE MAME. Was it not? [INT: Yeah, well--one of them, ‘cause-- Yeah, she did AUNTIE MAME. A musical version.] And she looked--because she had advanced in age somewhat--and somebody said, "Well, how did they shoot Lucy?" And the answer was, "Let me put it this way: she was photographed through Doris Day." [Laughter] I mean, there were so many multiple sets of diffusion. [Laughter]

INT: And that's a perfect segway from shooting through Doris Day to the swastika.
JR: Oh, the swastika. [Laughs] So, the reason--and I had the image immediately when I said, "If the door opens into the set, I know exactly what I'm going to do." And the door did open. So I said, "Okay." So on the night, when we did it, it's a Sunday morning in the play and Archie is down--has just come downstairs--and yells up, "Edith, where's the paper?!" And off-stage, she says, "It's still outside, Archie." You know? And he goes toward the front, mumbling all the way, to the effect of, "If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. Nobody helps out in this family." Mumble mumble. Irritated completely. Sunday morning, Bunker. And he opens the door and goes out. Now, it reveals to the audience this incredible, horrifying, dripping swastika. And of course, it's like lighting a fuse in terms of audience response. What's gonna happen when he sees it? And he comes back reading the paper [chuckles] and he's looking at the paper. And he walks back into the house and closes the door behind him, just flings it. Not having seen it, still on the paper, and when he reaches center stage, he looks up with the thought of, "Did I see something peripherally?" And he walks back and flings it open and there it is. And he stares at it and then he yells, "Edith!" Like it's her fault, you know? And then we're off to the-- [INT: Great.] Now, what we did, actually, we did a show on the Jewish Defense League. We called it the Hebrew Defense Association. [INT: Right.] The swastika has been mistakenly placed on the Bunker household. [INT: Because they thought there were Jews there.] Yeah, they thought there were Jews. Now Gregory Sierra, playing the leader of this militant Hebrew operation has come to the Bunker household to find out what's going on and it's revealed that it's meant for the Goldbergs down the street and Archie says, "Oh, well what the hell. It’s no problem." You know? And the kids, of course, are fiercely opposed to this thought. "What do you mean there's no problem?” They said, “People going around-- These are terrible skinheads are out there doing these awful things--have to be stopped!" And Archie is like, "Are you kidding?" And of course, Gregory Sierra is of the militant mood to say, "We're gonna kill those guys." And Archie says, "I like this guy." And the kids are saying, "You can't! You've gotta stop!" And what we were doing, we were doing Palestine-Israeli. Even then. This is 1974, I think. [INT: Whoa.] And we were having this big dialectic by extension of the Israeli-Palestinian problem. [INT: Right.] And the dialogue goes on and on. Archie loving the militant, the kids arguing against him. At some point in the script, a cohort comes in and he says, "We're down at the Blumberg house.” --Or Goldberg, or whatever the place is. They're gathering down there. We're gonna get those guys." And he said, "By the way, this is the wrong house." He says, "I know all about that. I'll be right down. I'll join you in a minute," says Gregory, "in my car." And they talk a few minutes more and we go off on a pretty nice laugh where he says to the family, he says, "Well, shalom." And makes his exit. And Edith says, "Shalom? What does that mean?" And I think it was Sally's [Struthers] line, says, "Believe it or not, it means peace." And she says, "Yeah, but--" And Archie chimes in, he says, "It means he was leaving." You know? And then somebody else said—I guess, this time it was Sally, "Well actually, Jewish people say shalom when they're coming or leaving." And Edith, dimly, says, "Well how do you know which is which?" And Archie, always disdainful of her suggestions, says, "Use your head, Edith. If a Jew was coming at ya, it means it's coming. And if he's leaving, he's leaving." I mean, some stupid simplicity. It made no sense at all. And on that laugh, there was an enormous off-stage explosion. And the family rushed to the door and I had a camera outside. Talk about doors. And the faces of the four were framed looking beyond the camera, and said, "My god, it was Paul. They blew him up in his car.” [INT: Wow.] Now, at the end of it, we usually have music and credits. [INT: Right.] And I said, "No music." We took a long, slow fade on the horrified faces--itself a commentary. Bob Wood [Robert D. Wood], our wonderful president of CBS [Columbia Broadcasting System] at the time, who never understood the show--loved the bottom line, that we were getting a 62 share--never understood what we were doing. He was quoted--he was in New York--and he said, "You know what those guys did last night? They bow up a Jew and then the credits roll." That's what he got out of the show. They blow up a Jew and the credits roll? I mean, it's-- [INT: Great.] It’s like once before--did I talk about his commentary about-- [Wood? No.] I never talked about it? [INT: Uh-uh.] I mean, he had the guts to put the show on, but I swear he was mystified. Talk about-- [INT: Right. You were.] But not just humor because we were doing a lot of social commentary. And one day, again, when I was first producing and I had to endure, and I’d say the word advisedly outside Writers coming in to pitch ideas, and I really didn't like that process but I did it with Norman Lear. He was teaching me how to do-- And I never wanted to be Producer. I said, "I'm just happy to be a Director." But he insisted, 'cause he was going on to create his empire; and I didn't want any part of that. I just liked being with that one show. [INT: Mmhmm.] But he wanted me to produce? Okay. So I'll produce and direct. So in the producing portion, I had to listen to these pitches and the year that I first did this, pitches were coming in by the hundreds from Writers saying, "Archie and Edith buy a cemetery plot." Well everybody's done that more or less on sitcoms and it was tired. We didn't want to do that. But after the sixteenth pitch or so, Lear looked at me and he said, "You know, death is in the air. Maybe we ought’a do something--" Norman was very innovative. [INT: Right.] I loved that about him. He said, "They want to talk about death? Why don't we really do something like--?" I said, "Like what?" He said, "Why don't we get a character that everybody hates and put him in the attic, and let him die. And then we’ll have the problem of burying him.” Well, that’s a wonderful story. So cousin Oscar is created. Somebody we never see. And he is upstairs, reading the paper, we’re told. He hasn’t come down to his second breakfast. He’s already eaten one. He smoked all of Archie’s cigars; he’s a real pain. And Archie is furious. He sends Meathead, “Go on up and get that son of a gun down here. He’s getting out of here.” And then there’s a long discussion and argument about how cousin Oscar got there and what a terrible man he is. And Rob Reiner comes downstairs with a terrible look on his face and Archie said, “Well? Did you tell him to get up?” He said, “Yeah.” “And is he coming?” “No.” “Why isn’t he coming?” “He’s dead.” The two looked at each other and Carroll [O'Connor] said, “No.” “Yeah.” “No.” [Laughs] “Yeah.” [Laughs] We played that back and [motions back and forth]. It was-- I mean, it was wonderful to take the word “dead” in a situation comedy-- [INT: It’s great.] and then fool with it. Of course, two wonderful Actors. I mean, I just love these guys. [INT: Great.] “Yeah.” And then Archie screams up at the top, “You’ve done it to me again.” [INT: Great.] Alright, so the whole show was about the high cost of dying and we had a funeral-- [INT: Expenses and all that stuff, right?] director played by Jackie Grimes [Jack Grimes]. Do you know him? [INT: Yup.] Very small Actor. [INT: Yeah.] I wanted to cast him, which we did, against type. [INT: Right.] I didn’t want the regular, lugubrious funeral director. This guy looked like a jockey. Whitehead. [INT: Right.] “Whitehead brought us what we give you…” You know, one of those guys? He talked with a Queens accent. And Archie is trying to get him a cheap funeral. [INT: Right.] And so he’s running back and forth with people coming in and going out, and always coming back to Whitehead who’s got the book open, showing caskets, and we had researched the real thing. He said, “I got this one. Here’s the Patriot.” He said, “Facing the deceased for eternity, a picture of the American flag.” He said, “I couldn’t stand the guy living here for a week. I’ve gotta take care of him for eternity?” [Laughs] Then he goes on, he says--one of my favorite lines ever in this show ‘cause when he’s talking about the cost of things, with the flowers and the organist and the drivers, all of the things we were attacking subtly--and Whitehead, he says, “Why is it so expensive?” And he says, and Whitehead brought us, “When we give the deceased his final--” and Archie says, “Will you spare me them stained glass answers and give me something cheap?” I love that phrase. [INT: Yeah. Great line.] “Stained glass answers.”

INT: Now this is one of the Writers?
JR: Oh, this was Norman [Norman Lear]-- [This was Norman?] who wrote that line. Yeah. [INT: Great.] I think it was Norman. Or it may have been Don Nicholl. It was a wonderful line. [INT: Stained glass windows.] But whatever it was, I loved it. [INT: Yeah, it's great.] “Spare me them stained glass answers.” And he says, "I want something cheap. Can a guy buy," says Archie, "Can a guy buy something such as used?" [Laughs] And Whitehead says, "Used?" Big laugh. [INT: Alright, let me--] He says, wait let me finish this thought – [INT: Go on, go on, go on.] because it's all about Bob Wood [Robert Wood] eventually. [INT: Okay. Good, good.] He said, "Yeah.” He said, “You know, fleet jobs, floor bottles, you know?" [Laughs] "That sort of thing." He said, "Well, no. We can't." Anyway, and the haggling continues all through the piece, and at one point, Bunker says--Whitehead says, "One more thing, Archie. Do you want this guy buried restricted?" In a restricted cemetery. And Archie's answer was, "Are you kidding? For all I care, you could slip him in between a couple of coons." Well, it got a big laugh. Harsh line. [INT: Yeah, very.] Very harsh line, but it got a big laugh. And we went on. And the show certainly was not about that. That was a line. Bob Wood ran into us at the commissary the next day or so, and he said, "Listen, I was traveling, but I heard you had a show last night. Did you really do that? 'Slip him in between a couple of coons?'" And we said, "Yeah, what about it?" He said, "What a great line." He said, "My god.” He said, “That's just great!" And we said, "Well, wait a minute. Is that all you heard about the show?" And we're looking for the high cost of dying. He said, "What more do you need? What a great line! Keep it up, guys. That's wonderful." He went off choking. So Lear and I looked at one another, said, "Let's cut the line." Which we did. We cut it out. Well, it was too--now, Wood, the next time, having seen the show now, he said, "I waited all night for my favorite line! What happened?" And we said, "Well, we thought, we thought it meant too much to you. I mean, it was too powerful a line." That's not what the show was about. He said, "I'll never understand you guys." He was really mystified as to what the show was about. [INT: Great.] But he was prepared to accept it on that line, which is an ugly line at best, you know? [INT: So it never made it in, that line?] Oh, it never showed on the air. [INT: Wow.] No, no. [INT: Amazing.] Sometimes, you take out because it just overpowers, you know? It's wrong for the program. [INT: Got it.] It's wrong, even for that character. By the way, I said before that we were mischievous sometimes with Archie's defenses. We really had the point of view of the kids, and I hated Richard Nixon with a passion, you know? I thought, "This is the thief of all time." And until we have what we have today. [INT: Yes.] This is the thief in chief. [INT: Yeah, really.] This might not be popular in some circles as I talk, but I'm sorry, folks. That's it. [INT: Honesty, remember?] Yeah. [INT: You started with that.] Anyway. [INT: You were saying about Nixon.] Oh yeah. So at one point, we got a little crazy too. It was the night before the 1972 election--the Saturday before that Tuesday. And we wrote a script about Meathead coming into a small inheritance. An uncle gave him $500. [INT: Right.] Archie rubbed his hands. "Five hundred bucks,” he said. “We'll start paying back something we owe to some people?" And he said, "Well, but I have something more important to do with this money." He said, "What?" "Well, Gloria needs a new coat." "Well okay, what does that cost?" "$75, why?" He said, "Well, what about it? What about the rest of it?" He said, "The rest of it, I'm giving it to the George McGovern campaign." And Archie went ballistic. “The government! How could you do such a thing." You know what I mean? [INT: Right, right.] And then we had the argument. "Look, we think Nixon's gonna win anyway," said the kids, which was a sure thing. [INT: Right.] "But we have to be careful in order to maintain a two party government in this country. One party should not get to be more powerful than the other." Or that much more powerful. And Bunker's line was, "Who's been feeding you that Commie crapola?" And Meathead said, "Dwight Eisenhower said that." Which he had. [INT: Yeah, yeah. I know.] It was very carefully researched. [INT: Great.] And we got our laugh with that, and then Archie's face was [makes angry face]. Now, looking for a line to defend his man-- [INT: Right, right.] we had him say, "He never said no such thing. Ike Eisenhower was a great president who never said nothin'." [Laughter] So we were really evil. [INT: Except you were very good.] Even in creating the defense.

INT: Alright, you were talking about something that I want to go to. In the rehearsal process, you were saying, where should the Director be? Particularly, I guess, you start at the table reading. Where should the Director sit?
JR: Oh, without question, I always sat at the head of the table and in fact, I would have a rectangular table and I would sit at the head and make certain that nobody could sit behind me. Now that wasn't just a Mafioso instinct. It was because if the Actors looked behind and somebody was either whispering or making a face about a line, it would react--that reaction would hurt them. So I wanted no focus except to be on myself, so-- And also because first readings frequently involved the network and the studios. I would say, "Only the Actors will be in the chairs immediately adjacent." Script Supervisor would be off to the right. But everybody else peripheral. Very peripheral. And it was important to get that--in fact, a study was done about juries, and it said that when people walk into an unfamiliar room, it's almost self-selecting. The foreman of the jury will sit at the head of the table, and all attention goes to that particular [motions to a point] and that's why they're elected. And they are kind of self-selecting in a way. The next position of power is the center, on both sides of the table, such as a US President with a cabinet sits that way because they have so many people who have importance. You need to do that. But in a show, you know, as--who was--I think Richard Brooks once said, "We live in a dictatorship." Pardon me. [INT: Yeah, I remember--] It's interesting Freudian slip. [INT: Yeah, really.] "We live in a democracy until you walk onto my set." And it has to be that way. There can only be one captain. And certainly in the reading, which is essential to get things off on the right foot. You want the lines of power to go to you. I don't want people looking at the Producers. I don't want people looking at the Networks [Network Executives]. I want them looking to me in case something has to be said, I would expect the Network or the Producers, or whoever, to talk to me first and I will then talk to the Actors. [INT: Yup.] But it's important--in fact, I would always look at a room. Before we had a first reading, I would come down and check the room to make sure that it was set up to my satisfaction. Because sometimes, people unconsciously--they’ll just put chairs around. You can't do that. It has to be focused. [INT: Got it. Well spoken.

INT: When you were running to, every now and then--we've talked about this a little, but I just wanted to see if there's any other issues, just in terms of technique--when you run into an Actor whose performance you're not pleased with, what are ways that you've been able to help or alter that performance?
JR: Well, just talking it out. Saying, "What's troubling you here?" "Oh, nothing's troubling me here." I said, "Well, but I don't think you're hitting the point." I said, "Let's examine where this character has come from and where it might be going, but let's mostly talk about where it's been." And so we'll talk about that. I mean, we won't talk about the specific line because that's a death trap. If you get into that, you're gonna get readings. And I want them to really function internally and see what's the backstory? That will clear it up, almost 100%, but you've got to remind them. Sometimes they might have forgotten. They might never have known, or even thought about it. But if you forced the thought process to say, "What was the last scene about?" Or "What was the prior life about? Where did this character come from?" And you get the Actor thinking along those lines, it's automatic. It's gonna come out right, I think.

INT: So then this is interesting, though. For you then, a real tool is the backstory.
JR: Oh boy. [INT: Now will you have necessarily--] It's essential. [INT: Alright, alright. Let me ask this. Will you have necessarily already, in your own mind, made up one? Or will you go along with the creation of one?] Oh, I definitely give credit to the creator. The author has a right to be serviced. [INT: No, no, I understand. But you may be in a situation where a character comes in who's supposed to be the cop, if you will.] Right, right. [INT: And he comes to do a scene, he's got an important scene, but he's not getting it right.] Right, I see. I see what you're saying. [INT: And, you know, the author didn’t -- this character came out of nowhere, but still may very well, if you gave him a backstory--] I see what you mean. [INT: You know?] I would either invent the story or say, "You're fired." [Laughs] [INT: No, I mean, there is always a way out. I'm sorry I'm gonna have to re-cast, you know? You don't like to do that, but I've done that. [INT: You have?] Oh, I have. Haven't you? [INT: No. I've been forced to, but I have not voluntarily.] No, I've done it myself. [INT: No, no. I've been forced where somebody forced me to replace an Actor.] Oh, that's interesting. No, I remember a very fine Actor named Jeffrey Jones. [INT: I know Jeffrey Jones.] His work was very good, but I had him on a pilot and he just couldn't get it. And no matter how much we talked, he didn't have the rhythm because he was a film Actor. And I was doing a TV pilot, and you talk about budget constraints and time. I didn't have the time. I mean, I tried. And I gave it all I could, but I finally said, "Jeffrey, I don't think this is going to work." He said, "I think you're right." He was not-- [INT: Cut out for that kind of music.] He didn't really understand the tempo that was required of the piece. And he was a false note within the tempo. Everybody else was playing one beat, or one series of beats, and he was going much slower because that's his process. And I said, "Jeffrey, we don't have two weeks, you know? We have an hour." Well, it was literally almost true. [INT: I got it. I got it.] Well, we're friendly, but I said, “I can’t--” You know, it's funny. There was in one of the Elvis Presley movies, I had a scene in a roadhouse. Have I talked about this? I might have done. Where there were three college girls who were accompanying the guys that jumped Elvis in a fight or some nonsense like that. But in the casting, these were extra girls, except one was gonna get a line. And I hate that kind of line-up. It was Hal Wallis's office. [INT: Right.] And maybe 15 or so of these girls and every one of them was a knockout. Just gorgeous to look at. That's what I want. Pretty, young girls. And so arbitrarily, I just said, "Oh geeze, oh god." It's like being a candy store, but I said, "The blonde, the brunette, and the redhead," just to give it a little differentiation. Now we get on the scene and I had given the blonde, I think, the line. She couldn't do it. I mean, it was a simple line. I don’t know what the heck-- But she was just not up to it. And I went as long as I could, but with a whole hundred people standing around waiting, I said to the redhead girl, I said, "Excuse me." I said, "Could you do this line?" I said to the girl, "I'm sorry. I've done five takes already. Forgive me, but you're beautiful to look at, but I've gotta have this line read." And I gave it to the redhead and she read the line perfectly. And I took her aside later and said, "Thank you very much for being so professional." She said, "I'm glad to do it. It's my first movie, but I'm gonna be a big star." I said, "Yes, I know. I'm quite sure you are." Not believing it. It was Raquel Welch. [INT: Great. Great.] She became a big star. [INT: Yep. Redhead did it.]

INT: When you've--you've had the situation where an Actor sort of really resists, strongly [JR: Yes.] And how have you dealt with that?
JR: I fear, badly. I get angry. Bruce Dern did that to me once on a GUNSMOKE episode. He really did not want to do what was required and I didn't have the skill, frankly, to incorporate--'cause he's a very fine Actor. He's excellent. And I should have been able to allow him a little more leeway and I couldn't do it 'cause I didn't really understand. I tried, but the failure was mine. Now we did the show together and eventually, there was a kind of a compromise reached but it was grudging. And I don't like to work that way. So, forgive me Bruce. [INT: What do you think--] There was another one. Alan Mowbray in a very awful, early thing. And I never forgave myself for this and I'm sorry that he died and I insisted on--it was a reading about, he was talking about the fish stew, which we called bouillabaisse. And he pronounced it bouille-baize. And I said, “No. It’s bouillabaisse.” He said, "Not where I come from. It’s bouille-baize." You know? I said, "I don't think anybody will understand it." Well, bullshit, of course they'll understand it. Leave him alone! I did not leave him alone. I insisted on bouillabaisse and I have resented it in myself ever since. [INT: Why?] Because I should have let him say "bouille-baize." It didn't matter. That was his pronunciation. His character was English, it was strange, but okay. Some people mis-pronounce things. There was no question that you'd understand what it was and I was being--it's funny, it's a terrible confession, but I was being too hard-nosed about it. [INT: Got it.] It didn't have to be-- [INT: Got it.] I should have left it alone. Move on. It's not that important. We finally got bouillabaisse out of it, but it was an ugly--[INT: An ugly bouillabaisse. You wouldn't have wanted to taste it.] I wouldn't eat that bouillabaisse for anything. No. [Laughter]

INT: See, it's an interesting struggle, though--about when, you know? 'Cause you have certain conceptions of what's right.
JR: Oh yeah. It has not happened that often, I must say. It happened-- No, this was not resistance. This was inability. Did I talk about Jerry Van Dyke? [INT: I think you may have 'cause I know we talked about Dick [Van Dyke]. Well but, Jerry, maybe not. Tell. Start just speaking.] Well, the lunches at Desilu Studio were always wonderful. [INT: Yeah.] Carl Reiner used to say, "If the lunches are good, we have a happy company." And everybody ate in that commissary. [INT: Right.] There was a guy named Hal, I think, who was the owner, who had an apron that was besotted with blood and every other kind of marking, and it had been pressed maybe, but never washed. And Garry Marshall once said, "Hal's apron was first used as a ground cloth for a cockfight in Tijuana." That's a marvelous image. You know, 'Cause it looked--? But at that luncheon, one day, Dick said something about his brother. [INT: Yeah.] And Carl Reiner perked up and said, "You've got a brother? We didn't know!" He said, "Yeah." He said, "What does he do?" "Well, he works in small clubs in the south." "He--he's a performer?" [INT: Wait--] I did talk about this. [INT: Yeah, you brought him out.] Yeah, we brought him out. [INT: Yeah, right.] And Carl had written a very complex dual character role-- [INT: Right.] because one of the things that we learned about Jerry [Van Dyke] through Dick was that his brother was a sleepwalker. Somnambulist. So Carl wrote a script about this where he had two different personalities: one asleep and one-- [INT: Great, yeah.] awake. [INT: Couldn’t do it.] So in the first reading, Jerry was very hesitant. He did not read well and I said, "Well, some Actors read poorly.” [INT: Yup.] “It’s okay, but not a problem." By the way, speaking of that, just a slight tangent. [INT: Yeah.] I was doing a show called THE JOHN CAPONERA SHOW. John Caponera was a comic-- [INT: Right.] and we did it at Disney. It became a short run series called THE GOOD LIFE. And Caponera was a nice comic. I liked him. But there was a second banana on the show who, at the first reading, was very hesitant in his reading. And what was the name of that major league schmuck from Disney? Oh help me. He went on to UPN [United Paramount Network]. [INT: You mean as an Executive?] Executive. Of course. He comes from that same damaged genetic pool that inhabits all Network Executives. [INT: Gee, I wonder who you mean from Disney?] Oh, come now! [INT: This was before--?] Valentine! Dean Valentine. [INT: Okay, fine.] Okay. [INT: Right.] Dean Valentine was the honcho at Disney and he took me aside and he said, "Fire that guy." First reading. I said, "What guy?" He said, "The guy with the glasses." I said, "But why would I fire him?" He said, "Well, did you hear that reading?" I said, "Well, it was a little hesitant but it's a reading.” [INT: Yeah...] “Some Actors take a little while to get into it." He said, "Well, I think he's terrible. You've gotta get rid of him." I said, "Look, let me make a small prediction." I said, "First of all, I will not fire him. You'll have to fire me first. Or you fire him.” [INT: Right.] “But I won't say it. I'll make a prediction that Caponera is the head of the show, but he will not survive as long as that guy--that guy is a breakout character." It was Drew Carrey. [INT: Wow.] I was right. [INT: Right.] And Valentine wanted to fire him on a bad reading. [INT: Sure.] I said, "He'll get there." I mean, I had seen his stuff. I mean, I had seen his act. [INT: Yeah.] Come on. Well, Jerry Van Dyke now was intimidated, I think. Our company was such a well-oiled machine-- [INT: Yup.] that they read in character, with verve, with timing, with all of that, and he was hesitant. And I said, "Well, okay." Now we've got our feet. He was more hesitant. And I said, "Uh oh.” [INT: Yup.] “There’s something really-- This is is worse than just a reading. He's not fitting in and I don't know exactly what it is, but what I did was, I got a football and I started throwing the football around. This was an unconscious-- [INT: Right.] thing on my part. And the cast looked at me after five minutes-- Sometimes I would do a little thing like that--but, ten minutes, fifteen minutes of football? And they said, "When are we gonna work?" I said, "We'll get to it." I'm thinking, "What the heck am I doing? There's a reason for all of this." And then I said, "By the way, Jerry." I said, "Do you have any film of your act?" He said, "Well, it's on a two-inch tape." In those times-- [INT: Right.] we had to go over to CBS [Columbia Broadcasting System] to see it. I said, "Let's all take a break and go over and look." I got Carl Reiner and we went over to CBS to look at it. Well, his tape was a real southern roadhouse where he did the jokes on a banjo and told jokes in between. The caliber of the joke was, "You know how you can tell a happy motorcyclist? By the bugs on his teeth." That type of joke. [INT: Right.] You know, ancient and southern? [INT: Right.] And Rose Marie sidled by me and said, "What are you gonna do, John?" [Laughs] I said, "Shut up." I threw the football around, wasted a whole day, deliberately. And the next day, we worked a little more tentatively, but still--and I realized what I was doing was I was trying to bring them down-- [INT: Right.] and give him a little more confidence to come up to speed. And I suspect, although I wasn't told, that Dick Van Dyke must have worked with him over the weekend, because he came in on Monday and he had the beginning of the character. And on Tuesday night, he was a smash. [INT: Wow.] He was great. And later, I realized I--that's exactly what I was doing. In an unconscious movement--that sometimes you tear down the good guys to let the laagered catch up. [INT: Nice.] And that's what it was about. Now the following week, 'cause it was a two-parter, he came to work and Jerry started throwing a football. I said, "What are you doing?" He said, "Don't we throw a football around?" I said, "That was last week, for god's sake. Get in there. Let's go to work!" "Huh?" I said, "Come on! What do you think, this is playtime?" [Laughs] [INT: Great. Great.]

INT: Let's talk about… actually, you know what? Just curious about music and your participation in it. [JR: Yeah.] For example, the theme that the guys had in ALL IN THE FAMILY.
JR: That wasn't my doing. It was Norman Lear had had it commissioned. I can't remember who wrote it. [INT: Well, it was a famous old song, and then they just--] Well, but they put new words to it. [INT: Right.] I always objected to the phrase "Gee our old La Salle ran great." Norman said, "What's the objection?" I said, "They couldn't afford a La Salle." A La Salle was--[INT: Top of the line.] Well, it was actually second. It was the Cadillac in relationship with, it's the Rolls Royce's relationship to the Bentley. La Salle was a Bentley. I said, "This family would never afford--" he said, "What would you have done?" I said, "Hup mobile." [Laughs] There was a car like that. But it was too late and what's even worse is that people would write in and say, "What are those words?" Because they would say, [sings theme song] "Gee, our old La Salle ran great." And people would say, "What are those words?" And when I left the show they re-recorded it and they sang, [enunciates] "Gee, our old La Salle ran great." So that people would understand. Bu they killed the whole point of the song. Leave it alone. But that song existed before, and it was done once on tape, and that's what we used. But they played it every night for the audience, just for the heck of it.

INT: What's your attitude about music in the stuff that you work with and how you--?
JR: I think it's very important, except in ALL IN THE FAMILY. I didn't want--I never used a music cue. The opening and the closing theme, and a piano. But in between, Norman [Lear], at first, thought to put in music cues and I said, "You know what? We're gonna go so fast that I don’t want a-- There's no point." He said, "Yeah." We had one music cue, a celesta that really--when Sally [Struthers], the character of Gloria, lost the baby. [INT: I remember that.] And there was this tinkling music and I said, "Norman." I said, "It's like a slide whistle, you know? --Accentuating the comic moment. We don't need it. We've already got enough treacle; let's cut through it." [INT: Yeah.] And I said, "From now on, though--" And he acceded to that. [INT: Got it.] I never used music there. However, I used to love working with composers on themes. Henry Mancini, when we did the theme for NEWHART--I mean, I just said, "It's New England." And he came back with a New England theme. It was just absolutely perfect. And there's an interesting story about that. We had sent a crew back to New England to photograph something that could stand in for the Newhart Inn. This was the second series-- [INT: Okay.] when he was the innkeeper. And they came back with absolutely unusable footage, except for one thing. A sign that said, "The Inn--" [INT: Uh huh.] or whatever that thing was called. And I was devastated. I said, "We've gotta get this to the network within a week." So I sent out a call to some of the stock houses. I said, "Get me any kind of stock New England footage you can find." And they went looking, and what they came back with was some outtakes from ON GOLDEN POND. [INT: Right.] Pretty good. [INT: Sure.] I said, "You sure this has never been used in the film?" No, they hadn't. [INT: Right.] But I found enough footage to create--it was actually, when Jane Fonda was going up to the house with Henry Fonda, and Katharine Hepburn-- [INT: Right.] There was a car and they followed this car through New England, but obviously they hadn't used much of it. And I said, "My god, if I can pick that car up, it will fit this theme--” It was already written, the music. The music was lovely. And I found this thing and one of them led to a boat on a lake. I said, "Grab that." And I was gradually able to pierce together enough from this to make a story as if that car was leading us to the inn. [INT: Right.] All out of outtakes from GOLDEN POND. Every bit of it. [INT: Great.] It had the foliage, it had the church with a steeple, and I said, "This would make an ideal temporary opening." Well, not only was it a temporary opening, they used it forever. [INT: Does Mark Rydell know this?] You know what? I never mentioned it to him. It's interesting. I should’ve. [INT: Yeah!] I see him every night at a board meeting. I never did mention it to him, but I certainly am grateful for it. [INT: Yeah.] But what interested me was that I had intended it as a temp. [INT: Right. And it became the style.] It became the thing. And it absolutely fit the music, and the images themselves were pure New England.

INT: Now on things like MACGYVER, you had regular--you had serious soundtrack music there, right? I mean, you know.
JR: We had a composer. [INT: Right.] Jerry [Randy] Edelman [INT: And so--and that was interspersed throughout the piece.] Oh yeah. [INT: It wasn’t--] That was scored every week. Yeah, that was an important part of music. [INT: Now did you get involved in that?] Oh boy. [INT: And what's you’re role? What’s the Director's role here?] I like it; I don't like it. I mean, it's as simple as what a Director does about, earrings or no earrings? Do you want a red blouse or a white blouse? You wear the shoes with black or brown? You know, it’s what a Director does everyday is what drove one of my wives crazy. When I would come home and she would say, "Do you want corn or mashed potatoes?" And I said, "For Christ's sakes, make up your mind-- [INT: Really?] and don't ask me." [INT: Right.] "I've done nothing but make selections all day long!"

INT: Yes, it's really interesting. I was thinking about asking you about this, which is maybe too personal. But it's the issue of having a personal life and also being a Director.
JR: Very difficult. [INT: Because one of the things that is true--I know this exactly; I know this precisely--which is, I come back and I don't want to make any more decisions.] Yeah. [INT: And y’know, you're in a relationship in which you haven't agreed to suddenly accede to--] It's very unfair on my part to say that, but it comes out of this multitude of binary selection: yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, all day long. And you don't want to be bothered with something. Let somebody else take the helm for a moment. [INT: Yup.] I can relinquish mashed potatoes and corn. I don't care. Somebody else make that decision. Very unfair to the wife, and I apologize. [INT: Unless you made an agreement.] Well-- [INT: But you haven’t.] But how can you make that agreement? 'Cause you don't know yourself that it's going to happen. [INT: Yeah.] I mean, you do know you're going on a set and—Well god, how many decisions do you make every half hour on seeming trivia? [INT: Yup.] You know? And of course I believe, very much, in being very focused on the trivial because I want that mosaic to be pure. [INT: Mmhmm.] I remember in doing WIVES AND LOVERS at Paramount [Paramount Pictures], I was doing a big scene. The scene was Broadway, the Writer was Van Johnson, who, he was a playwright. Jay Presson Allen did the script. [INT: Yeah, right.] And so I was up on the crane and it was a night shot and we had created the backlot at Paramount, New York theater, with all of the bustle of that period, New York. I had taxicabs, mounted New York police, you know? All of this, the people dressed in those days, and it was really lovely. A nice shot with a lot of activity to it. And I was up on the crane checking the thing. And I said, “There’s something wrong.” It was like grit in the eye and I didn't know what it was. I just kept staring and staring and staring; and then I-- you know how you break down, at least I do, a quadrant. I said, "That quadrant of film, of the scene is okay. This quadrant is okay. That's a horse, that's a New York patrol car, that's okay." Now, the marquee said: “A New Play by William Joseph Austin,” which is the character's name. I think that was it. [INT: Mmhmm.] “Okay.” Then I went over to the side of the marquee and it said: “A New Play by William Howard Austin.” William Joseph, William Howard. [INT: Wow.] That was the grit in my eye. So I took the crane, had the crane go down, and I called the Art Director. I said, "What's wrong with that sign?" He said, "Nothing." I said, "Look at it carefully." [Shakes head] I had to spell it out for him. He said, "My god, how'd that happen?" Somebody must have thought of Howard Taft, was all I could think of. You know, William Howard Taft? [INT: Yeah, yeah.] But we changed it, obviously; and it reminds me of another story when I was driving by--I was working at Paramount, but I was driving by the Fox lot one morning when they were setting up HELLO DOLLY. Do you remember the set they used? [INT: Sure.] They had a magnificent--[INT: They took over the whole studio--] The whole front.